The Electrical Volunteers Report Sunday 11-7-2010.

[asbibby]

Jonathan came in on Saturday to finish off assembling some of the station lamp heads, we now have seven spare these will probably be used in the future on either Irwell Vale or Baron Street Stations.
On Sunday a full team of volunteers showed up consisting of Len, John, Clive, Jonathan and myself.
The first job was to test the fire alarm call points in the booking hall and the Trackside bar this has to be done each week, Len and Jonathan tackled this job.
We then had a phone call from our leader M.V. to check out the blue and white brake coach attached to the Howson bar car, apparently the internal lights were not working, we checked the lights on the brake first with the guard and they were working OK then the lights on the Howson car were checked and most of the internal fluorescent lights were working OK, possibly someone had charged up the batteries. The rest of the fluorescent lights will have to be checked when the coach is out of service, we only had five minutes to do all the checks as the train was due to leave.
We then had a clearout in our workshop to get rid of scrap cable and other obsolete equipment, a least we can now get in and out of the workshop without falling over each other.
Len and Jonathan were then asked by Irene to have a look at one of the lights in the booking office, this was a D type light fitting it was replaced along with a new starter.
Next task was to strip the old wire out of the pins in the stripped down carriage plugs, these all now need cleaning of years of grunge, it as been suggested that we try vinegar on them so next week we will give it a go and see what the results are.
Since we were running short of refurbished carriage plugs and leads we made up seven new ones soldering new cable onto the pins and reassembling them ready for testing and heat shrink tubing over the cable next week.
Clive had caught the train up to Rawtenstall to check again the accuracy of the new clocks after last weeks tweaks to the electronic control circuitry, the conclusion was that it within 0.25 of a second a week, so we will leave it at that!

[dave roderick]

these will probably be used in the future on either Irwell Vale or Baron Street Stations.

Hadn't realised electricity had reached Irwell Vale. Does this mean that we will have to stop in the dark even for no passengers. What will happen to the Halloween Specials?

[asbibby]

these will probably be used in the future on either Irwell Vale or Baron Street Stations.

Hadn't realised electricity had reached Irwell Vale. Does this mean that we will have to stop in the dark even for no passengers. What will happen to the Halloween Specials?

The operative word is future, there is no electricity into the station at the moment, but an electricity cable is adjacent to the crossing that supplies the houses the other side of the railway line.
It is a matter of cost so we will still be in the dark for the foreseeable future.

[sleeper]

Not sure if i have asked this before but could we not use Solar Panels ?

[marflow]

Solar Panels would have to have batteries. Both are expensive.
If we used the very best lamps, they would perhaps be as low as 40Watts each and we'd need about 12 so that's 480W. That would need 24volts at 20amps. A big battery. If the lamps needed to be on for 3 hours and allowing for ageing of the batteries, we'd need about 100ah batts. Not impossible. The cost of installing mains and 12 regular lamps would be a small fraction of the cost of solar panels, very expensive high efficiency lamps, batteries and control gear. The cost of running would be less but by the time you've saved, you'd need new solar cells and batteries!

[Union Pacific]

No doubt some b****r would pinch them anyway.

[sleeper]

Thank you for such a comprehensive reply.

[mike-smashing]

We then had a phone call from our leader M.V. to check out the blue and white brake coach attached to the Howson bar car, apparently the internal lights were not working, we checked the lights on the brake first with the guard and they were working OK then the lights on the Howson car were checked and most of the internal fluorescent lights were working OK, possibly someone had charged up the batteries. The rest of the fluorescent lights will have to be checked when the coach is out of service, we only had five minutes to do all the checks as the train was due to leave.

Unless there's something more fundamentally wrong with the lighting on that set, it seems that it's suffering from nothing worse than flat batteries?

It looks like that set is always berthed down one of the carriage roads and therefore rarely gets put on charge overnight.

It would be helpful if it could be arranged to berth the air brake set overnight in Bolton Street rather than the carriage roads from time to time, to try and get the batteries fully charged from the shore supply. Is that something that can be done?

At least if we know the batteries are definitely charged and the lighting still won't come on, there's an issue elsewhere.

Mike

[mouldyjamontoast]

With regard to the lights on the air brake set, the batteries and charging thereof are almost certainly an issue.

However, there are other issues with the MK2 air brake set.

For example, it is very difficult to turn the train lights on from the train light control panel in the Guards compartment/office even when the batteries are charged.

Often, the lights will turn off from there ok, but will flicker in the brake coach when attempting to turn on. If the lights do flicker in the brake coach, it then results in the lights on the entire set being turned off, regardless of their previous state.

Strangely, the lights cannot then be turned back on, until the train has come to a stand.

The train light control panel in the Howson Bar does not work at all, as a T Key just spins in the hole. Therefore, with the air brake set in it's current formation (Howson Bar, Brake, TSO, TSO), it is necessary to go to the light control panel at the far end of the TSO next to the Brake (and stay there) to ensure the lights can be turned on and off when no longer needed.

The TSO's also have issues.
Once the train has stopped, the lights in the TSOs will turn off themselves and do not come back on once the train is moving again.
From personal experience on Mk1's, if the batteries have very little charge in them, the lights will illuminate, but at a dimmer level than normal at 25mph. If the train travels faster than 25mph, the lights are brighter.
I believe the issues in the MK2 TSO's are irrespective of the charge in the batteries, as the lights are illuminated as normal when the train is moving.

Also, if the train lights are still turned on when the train comes to a stand, they cannot be turned off from the TSO's, until the train is on the move again.

From a Guards perspective, these issues are frustrating to say the least, however, something needs to be done to improve the situation on the air brake set, if it is to continue to have regular use.

I wrote war and peace in the defect book for 17073 (the MK2 brake) during the diesel event.

I've signed the stock prep sheet for the Mk2 air brake set twice since. As yet, I've not seen anything with reference to the many notes regarding the poor lighting by myself and other Guards from C&W.

I doubt it will be long until a Guard fails the air brake set and refuses to take it. If the situation with the lights continues, that Guard may well be me.

[mike-smashing]

With regard to the lights on the air brake set, the batteries and charging thereof are almost certainly an issue.

However, there are other issues with the MK2 air brake set.

Thanks for the info Alex. Seems like there's a bunch of issues, only one of which is the lack of battery charging.

Just to note, the Heywood end TSO was managing to keep it's lights lit on Sunday, even when stopped. But you also seemed to have to control them from the panel in that TSO.

The other TSO - from what you describe, it seems like the generator supplies enough power to work the lighting control circuit and power the lights while on the move, but the batteries are either somehow disconnected or rather flat (and/or possibly not charging from the generator).

From what you describe on the BFK, and what it's doing to lights in the rest of the train, it sounds like it might be a control circuit problem (earth fault, arcing, short circuit?), given that after the flickering the rest of the train loses lighting - hinting that pin 2 on the RCH jumper is going hot when it shouldn't be? It's also possibly being compounded by the state of the batteries?

I don't know, I'm not a C&W engineer, just using some common sense and going with what I've seen before.

Mike

[Hymek The Cat]

We then had a phone call from our leader M.V. to check out the blue and white brake coach attached to the Howson bar car, apparently the internal lights were not working, we checked the lights on the brake first with the guard and they were working OK then the lights on the Howson car were checked and most of the internal fluorescent lights were working OK, possibly someone had charged up the batteries. The rest of the fluorescent lights will have to be checked when the coach is out of service, we only had five minutes to do all the checks as the train was due to leave.

Unless there's something more fundamentally wrong with the lighting on that set, it seems that it's suffering from nothing worse than flat batteries?

It looks like that set is always berthed down one of the carriage roads and therefore rarely gets put on charge overnight.

It would be helpful if it could be arranged to berth the air brake set overnight in Bolton Street rather than the carriage roads from time to time, to try and get the batteries fully charged from the shore supply. Is that something that can be done?

At least if we know the batteries are definitely charged and the lighting still won't come on, there's an issue elsewhere.

Mike

Coaches can be charged in carriage siding by connecting the charging lead to the coaches already stabled there. These are connected to a shore supply in C&W shed. This does mean that the coaches have to be stabled against each other in order to connect the charging leads, there was a longer lead but as with most leads someone has borrowed it for something else and not returned it! All the air brake set was on charge today. As an aside there were meant to be charging points fitted between CS1 and CS2 when the station ones were fitted, as yet this has not been progressed.

The issue with the BFK may have something to do with the Bar Car. The Bar Car is not fitted with an internal charger and is jumpered to the BFK via the Emergency Lighting Points so the charger in the BFK is supplying both vehicles. Flat batteries in either vehicle will affect the other and can cause some very bizarre results in the RCH signals. A request was made last year to fit the Bar Car with its own charger but like the charging points in the carriage sidings it has not been progressed.

[mike-smashing]

All the air brake set was on charge today.

Good to hear.

The issue with the BFK may have something to do with the Bar Car. The Bar Car is not fitted with an internal charger and is jumpered to the BFK via the Emergency Lighting Points so the charger in the BFK is supplying both vehicles. Flat batteries in either vehicle will affect the other and can cause some very bizarre results in the RCH signals.

Indeed. It will be interesting to see if a good charge will help, or at least give a starting point for fixing things.

Thanks for the info,
Mike

[mouldyjamontoast]

... there was a longer lead but as with most leads someone has borrowed it for something else and not returned it!

There are two charging extension leads that I know of.

One seems to be permanently located in the cess/platform edge near to the south charging point on Platform 3.
The other seems to spend the majority of it's time, in the corner of the Guards office. It only appeared there recently.

I don't know if either of those are the missing lead from C&W, but it could be worth a look.

[stevedsmheywood]

As one of the TTI's I can fully support the views of Mr King. On my last TTI turn Mr King was the guard on the train. He had to double up as an Usher holding a Bardic in the Howatson car do provide lighting.
We seemed to be going round in circles about coach lighting.

Mr King is also correct that in theory we should not allow pasengers to sit in coaches where there is no lighting. I am using this statement per the last steam nightrider in 2007 where the guard(now Guards manager) refused to take out the stock allocated for the nightrider, which delayed the departure by 55 minutes. There was another delay on diesel night rider where there were issues of some carriages without lighting.
However for the last diesel nightrider the geny car was attached to provide lighting.

I also support Mr King's comment that the guards could refuse to take stock out which does not have adequate lighting.!

[mike-smashing]

Couple of suggestions to make regarding the issue of the lights on the air brake set now it's hopefully been on charge for a day or two...

1) Can someone suitable down at Bury go and check the current lighting situation on the air brake set and report back?

2) Given the "shared fate" of the charging on BFK and 1871 (Howson Bar), how does the lighting control on the BFK and the two Mk2A TSOs behave if 1871 is electrically disconnected (i.e. the RCH jumpers disconnected, and the charging leads disconnected from 1871's ELPs) from the BFK? Does it work normally, or are the lights in the BFK still flickering and then killing the lights on the rest of the set? That would at least eliminate whether it's a fault on the BFK's lighting control, or on 1871.

3) Given that 1871 has it's own MA set, and ISTR doesn't have a lighting dynamo, next time it's run with an ETH servicable locomotive (e.g. 50015, this weekend's scheduled diesel, assuming that is ETH operable?), hook up the ETH - assuming there's no other reason why not. This should run 1871's MA to provide lighting and battery charging?

Thoughts? It would be good to nail this.

Cheers,
Mike