The Electrical Volunteers Report Sunday 11-7-2010.

[Hymek The Cat]

Couple of suggestions to make regarding the issue of the lights on the air brake set now it's hopefully been on charge for a day or two...

1) Can someone suitable down at Bury go and check the current lighting situation on the air brake set and report back?

2) Given the "shared fate" of the charging on BFK and 1871 (Howson Bar), how does the lighting control on the BFK and the two Mk2A TSOs behave if 1871 is electrically disconnected (i.e. the RCH jumpers disconnected, and the charging leads disconnected from 1871's ELPs) from the BFK? Does it work normally, or are the lights in the BFK still flickering and then killing the lights on the rest of the set? That would at least eliminate whether it's a fault on the BFK's lighting control, or on 1871.

3) Given that 1871 has it's own MA set, and ISTR doesn't have a lighting dynamo, next time it's run with an ETH servicable locomotive (e.g. 50015, this weekend's scheduled diesel, assuming that is ETH operable?), hook up the ETH - assuming there's no other reason why not. This should run 1871's MA to provide lighting and battery charging?

Thoughts? It would be good to nail this.

Cheers,
Mike

Checked the set earlier today and all the chargers indicated full charge so I switched the lights on from the BFK panel and all six vehicles put their lights on. So I then switched them off, BFK and the two MKII TSOs switched off but the Bar Car and the two TSOs in front of it remained on. A quick check of the RCH jumpers between the BFK and Bar Car revealed that only one side was connected! Reconnected it and checked the lights again and they switch on and off from the BFK.

The MA set under 1871 is U/S and disconected. There is a plan to get it repaired but as ever cost will probably be an issue.

[mike-smashing]

Thanks muchly for checking this out.

Guess it's a case of seeing how things go with this set over the weekend, if the batteries will hold charge, etc.

Didn't realise 1871 was quite as much of an oddball until now.

Mike

[marflow]

Have any of you lads got or know where we can get electrical schematic diagrams for the various coaches' lighting circuits. Showing the RCH plugs, batteries, regulators, dynamo, controls and so on. Any known websites?

We used to have some in The Cubby Hole under the stairs but they've gone.

The faults seem to revolve around the problem of some coaches having flatter batteries than others. Apart from the obvious mechanical problems with the RCH plugs going down the rake. The relay in each coach for the on or off function has to operate to do the business for that coach. The farther away from the button the relay is, the less likely it is to operate especially If there is a bad joint or RCH plug.

Finally, the chap who is mega upset. Please don't be. There's only so much we can do with this old stuff. Refusing to take a rake out will not do our railway any good. It may well give the individual a "Job's Worth" award though. And give the H&S people a score.

[mouldyjamontoast]

Finally, the chap who is mega upset. Please don't be. There's only so much we can do with this old stuff. Refusing to take a rake out will not do our railway any good. It may well give the individual a "Job's Worth" award though. And give the H&S people a score.

It is not a matter of being upset in any way, shape or form.

Whilst I am well aware of the age of the stock we all work with and the limitations of actually correcting problems/repairs, the reason a Guard would refuse to take the set, is if the train is unsafe and not fit for public service. This is irrespective of the age of the stock.

Granted, one coach in a set without lights is without question an issue, but not worth failing a train over. In such a situation, I am more than happy to pass a train as fit for service, as the Guard/TTI can stand in the middle of the coach with a bardic/halo when required.

The doubt over whether the train is fit for service arises when more than one coach is without lighting.
Most Guards only carry one bardic/halo as this equipment is not provided, bulky and unless there is an emergency, is not a necessity.
In the situation of a train with more than one coach without lighting, the help must come from other on train staff, who, without any spare method of lighting being carried by the Guard can experience the same problems as the passengers.
I would not expect, nor request on train staff on the train I am working to put themselves into such a position.

I have not yet had to fail a train because of no lighting on the entire train, as usually the lights fail towards the end of the day.
I have however cancelled a service to attempt to get some charge into the batteries. This was done during the 2008 Nightrider.

Personally, if I came to prepare a train for service and found it with no lights at all, I would only fail it if there was no way to charge the batteries and/or a service could not be cancelled to do this.

Making the decision to fail a train, or cancel a service, is not a matter of being a "Job's Worth", or attempting to get a H&S award.

It is a decision not made lightly by the Guard in question, based on personal and passenger safety. Passengers that board the train expect to get from A to B without injury.

As was seen this weekend, if a Guard has to leave while on duty, or is injured, in many cases, there may not be a spare Guard on site to relieve the train if required.
As many who have read the rulebook are probably aware, if there is no Guard, there can be no train...

[mike-smashing]

Have any of you lads got or know where we can get electrical schematic diagrams for the various coaches' lighting circuits. Showing the RCH plugs, batteries, regulators, dynamo, controls and so on. Any known websites?

I guess there may be someone who still works on the national network who can get their hands on these things, or what about asking the folks over at WCRC or Riviera, who run mainline certified Mk2a rakes?

The faults seem to revolve around the problem of some coaches having flatter batteries than others. Apart from the obvious mechanical problems with the RCH plugs going down the rake. The relay in each coach for the on or off function has to operate to do the business for that coach. The farther away from the button the relay is, the less likely it is to operate especially If there is a bad joint or RCH plug.

Sounds like making sure the rake is getting a proper charge before it's used is the way to go for now, then?

Anyone know how things were on this rake over the last weekend, given that it had been charged during the week? Did it get put back on charge on Sunday night?

Could 1871, with it's piggy-backed charging arrangements, be imposing an additional load on the BFK, thus making the BFK more prone to flat batteries?

Mike

[mouldyjamontoast]

Sounds like making sure the rake is getting a proper charge before it's used is the way to go for now, then?

Anyone know how things were on this rake over the last weekend, given that it had been charged during the week? Did it get put back on charge on Sunday night?

I was not the guard on the air brake set on sunday, however, the composition of the set had to be changed drastically due to a broken window on one of the TSOs.

Therefore, only the BFK and 1871 were actually part of the set, the other 2 coaches being dual brake MK1s.

I do however believe the landline was connected when the stock was disposed at the end of the day.

[DarthMunch]

Sounds like making sure the rake is getting a proper charge before it's used is the way to go for now, then?

Anyone know how things were on this rake over the last weekend, given that it had been charged during the week? Did it get put back on charge on Sunday night?

I was not the guard on the air brake set on sunday, however, the composition of the set had to be changed drastically due to a broken window on one of the TSOs.

Therefore, only the BFK and 1871 were actually part of the set, the other 2 coaches being dual brake MK1s.

I do however believe the landline was connected when the stock was disposed at the end of the day.

As the guard for the afternoon, the lights did work on the train from the lighting board in the guards van. However, the lights in the guards coach didn't work. The van light did but not the compartment lights.

In the evening I did the shunt up to the stock in CS1 to attach the landline, and did a big job of by-passing the Howson Bar and attatching the lead from the brake van onto the Mark 1 on the inside of the set! It's a bit of fuss but they charge

[ron3521504]

Shouldn't this topic be in the C and W section?

[mouldyjamontoast]

Shouldn't this topic be in the C and W section?

Moderator Comment

There are merits for this information being in both the Electrical and C&W forum areas.

However, the reason I have not split these posts from this thread and into C&W, is mainly due to the fact that the electricians have also found the information that has come to light useful. Hopefully, it'll help improve the situation for both the Electrical and C&W departments.

-----------------------

In my opinion, there should be more cross communication between the various departments. Often, all a Guard can do, is write a description of the problem in the defect book for that brake van and hope that C&W can action the notes. It is not really feasible to write the amount of detail as I wrote with the problems with the MK2 air brake set in the defect book.

Also, I'm unsure if the electricians ever actually see the defect books from the brake vans, as the notes from C&W when the defect books are checked are usually along the lines of "Electrician Informed"...

The action taken by the electrician involved in the fix is never noted in the defect book.

[mike-smashing]

Also, I'm unsure if the electricians ever actually see the defect books from the brake vans, as the notes from C&W when the defect books are checked are usually along the lines of "Electrician Informed"...

The action taken by the electrician involved in the fix is never noted in the defect book.

Good point. It would be useful if there was feedback via the defect book (or some other suitable route, if the defect book isn't deemed suitable), so that the fix for an issue is recorded.

I think this helps three ways:
1) Knowledge of the fix is shared around the operating staff.
2) If the problem recurs in service, the guard may have enough info to be able to effect a temporary running repair and get the set home or to the end of the day.
3) Fix time may be quicker, should the problem need looking at by a different electrician or fitter.

Regarding 1871 and it's odd nature, wasn't there supposed to be a more "conventional" blue/grey liveried RMB in the works for the air brake set?

Mike

[mike-smashing]

Have any of you lads got or know where we can get electrical schematic diagrams for the various coaches' lighting circuits. Showing the RCH plugs, batteries, regulators, dynamo, controls and so on. Any known websites?

Sorry to bump an oldish thread, but having worked the air brake set over the weekend, it seems we're slowly getting closer, but still have some way to go.

I've written stuff up in the defect book, but I think the main issues are:

1) Batteries in the BFK (14073) seem to be shot at.

Mid-afternoon, it reaches the point where there is enough charge to operate the locally controlled (i.e. with a lightswitch) tungsten bulbs in the van area, and enough to control the lights in the rest of the train, but not the lights in the compartments/corridors/vestibules - the lights which are driven off the lighting relays below the solebar.

You just don't hear the underfloor "clunk" of the lighting relays on the BFK operating when you try and switch the lights on.

Once the stock is disposed of and put back on charge, things start working again, but it seems there's still often not enough charge to fire the fluourescent tubes, just to run the reading lights and tungsten bulbs.

Has anyone got a hydrometer to test the specific gravity of the electrolyte, at least try and rule the current cells in or out of the equation?

Otherwise, I think we need to hope that Santa brings us a new set of batteries for this one.

2) One of the TSOs - the one marshalled nearest the BFK, 5337 - has a weird problem.

The lights cannot be turned on locally from the panel in the TSO, or remotely, however the batteries are showing a good charge.

The guard working the set on Monday then said that if lights were turned on throughout the train from the BFK, and then the local on switch was pressed on 5337, the lights would come on in this TSO.

So that sounds like an electrical problem which needs further investigation.

As regards getting advice or wiring diagrams, another group that may be worth approaching is the Mid Norfolk Railway - they run Mk2s almost exclusively.

Mike

[XTMike]

In my other role of working in the office in ELR I received an email last week from SVR ex-General manager who claims he has set up a company selling / distributing batteries.

I did forward the email to some people BUT if anyone else is interested please pm me with your email and I can re-send it on Monday.

I am only the messenger and know nothing about the batteries BUT he did say they could be suitable for carriages and / or diesel locos.

Mike